Talk:Altersex

Hello, there has been an individual on here that has been coining harmful/unhelpful terms to the intersex community and co-opting intersex language in redefining this term. I want the moderators of the website to be aware that the terms "enab" and "inabir" as well as "somayr" are all attempts to redefine or undermine language used in talking about intersex issues. Essentially they are attempting to position Altersex as a more acceptable version of "transintersex", which it is not. Altersex dysphoria is not any more "somatic" than any other sort of gender dysphoria. The terms "enab" and "inabir" mean 'endosex at birth' and 'intersex at birth', which were coined in order to imply a person can change their status from endosex or intersex to "a different sex", in this case, that means altersex. This is misguided at best and purposeful disinformation at worse. This individual has been doing this on numerous wiki sites. - Revision as of 15:13, 26 June 2024 by Intersexcowboy

The terms enab and inabir weren't on the page when you edited. And thanks for removing that misinformation. — Yunan 💬 17:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello! This is Miroymon. I am appalled by these accusations against me and my altersex community. I do not and will never co opt, steal, or change intersex language. That language is not for me, and I have actively put down pressure in making sure that people do not steal it. Which is why I have made new terms to describe our identity as far away from intersex identities as possible. There was an issue, which resulted in me coining these terms specifically to help communicate that altersex people cannot fit into dyadic or intersex alone, but instead would be an individual sex category above. a "layer" if you will. This layer, categorized by being an "additional label," would make it so that ANYONE could be altersex, not just dyadic people. The current definition was restrictive and it hurt intersex people who were also altersex because they didn't feel like they belong. The language I am trying to create will not only recognize plurals and alterhumans, but altersex people without surgery or HRT. I am, by all means, trying to accomplish something of building a community for altersex people - and that means removing ourselves from intersex spaces and terminology. ENAB and INABIR were coined specifically so that if an intersex or endosex people feels more comfortable as altersex, they can be recognized as such. This includes transsex people going from the term female to male socially, physically, medically, etc. It is being misconstrued by many parties to mean anything different and is supposed to help transsex individuals. I would like to see instances where my terminology has been used against intersex people, that way I know that there has been a legitimate problem that I need to call out (here and on other platforms) so I can shut down intersexism.

somayr has nothing to do with intersex people, enab and inabir have nothing to do with intersex terminology and I do not make terms for intersex people because I am not intersex and that would be overstepping their boundaries. This is the only site (miraheze) I've been on in order to, by the altersex community's permission, redefine our language that we already Do Not Have. I recently did a survey that proved that multiple people experienced somayr, that people wanted to be called altersex, and that altersex is not a gender identity. It is bigotry against trans people and other queer identities to suggest that our community is even remotely bothering intersex communities. For the past few days, an entire server has been harassing my accounts and me for making terminology for altersex people. I genuinely am just trying to explain that identity is mental and can affect the body if somatization is involved, which is an experience that multiple altersex people and alt-intersex people in my circles experience. Erasing that is intersexism, erasing that is exorsexism, erasing that is ableism. There are studies on how somatization and somatic experiences affect the body and can create negative experiences. Dysphoria can become physical the moment you experience anxiety and depression over it, because anxiety and depression are somatizations. Altersex is not "all in your head" or a gender identity, that's just ableism and sexism. Please do not attempt to squash alt-intersex people when they are apart of altersex communities. - Revision as of 04:41, 27 June 2024 by Miroymon

I personally don't have a problem with terms like enab, unless someone can clarify why it is problematic. But from a glance it seems okay. However I do have a problem with the term somayr for multiple reasons.

1. It's a name from the Quran. Nothing wrong with the Quran it's just like... any other non-religious name could have been used lol. The fact that this was chosen as the name seems to imply that the creator didn't do even just 5 seconds of research. It's literally the first google result when you search the name.

2. From what I can tell, the somatization affect from altersex thoughts has not been medically studied or documented, and thus shouldn't be added to the wiki. A poll on "somayr" experiences doesn't count as sufficient evidence, as somatic experiences can be caused by MANY other things, including unhealthy medical conditions. By saying that the mere mindset of wanting to be altersex can affect one's hormones, it is encouraging people not to seek medical assistance. Sudden hormonal imbalances are a symptom that something is wrong with the body, including thyroid imbalances, diabetes, adrenal and gland disorders, etc. There is however a lot of evidence to suggest that stress caused by harassment (transphobic and altersexphobia in this case) can lead to somatic symptoms and bodily disturbances - but this is something that should be addressed by a medical professional, not the online Tumblr community. Jeb_CC, Bureaucrat | (xe/xem/xir) (talk) 22:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I will definitely do my research next time. I was in a rush of trying to explain my and many other's experiences related to somatization - and the sudden harassment subsequent of coining it proved that it was unfit. I apologize, and will definitely be reworking the terminology. When I am actively stable enough, I will be looking into making research about altersex somatization possible. I'm not doing this for me, I'm doing this for so many other people who need language like this to describe themselves and from the community I have founded - it seems like they need a connection as well. Thank you, have a blessed day. - Revision as of 10:38, 27 June 2024 by Miroymon

Thanks Miroymon. I of course would welcome any new good-faith terminology, but when it comes to terms that relate to one's medical health I would very much like to see some kind of peer-reviewed study to accompany it. Jeb_CC, Bureaucrat | (xe/xem/xir) (talk) 00:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Question: why associate acquired sex traits with altersex if it includes body experiences that were not desired/planned? — Yunan 💬 14:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Answer: I don't think that altersex should mean anything to do with it being desired. It's more or less simply experiencing the sex identity rather than transitioning. I did a survey and one person mentioned that there was a bit too much emphasis on transitioning or desiring than there was ever talking about being altersex. and that was one the things they listed as a problem for altersex people. Altersex, at its core, would be any sex characteristics you have or experience that you were not born with/we're not going to reveal itself later. Some people in the altersex survey and server I say they don't always desire these traits but they have sensations or somatization related to sex identity. It's an intersection I'd like to look into further. - Miroymon.

Hello, this is intersexcowboy again. Please disregard Miroymon's edits to the wiki entirely. They are not to be trusted on matters of this identity or definition. As an intersex AND altersex person who is caught up on their history, I can confidently say that Miroymon is not taken seriously in either community, and has been attempting to change existing definitions like this for months now. They have received feedback from multiple intersex and altersex people and chose to disregard all of it, in favor of referring to said-people as "altersexist" for basic critisicisms. Such as stating the fact that altersex is unrelated to being intersex, altersex identity does not change perisex status, perisex is not "opt-in", and the fact that the concept of "somayr" is quite literally a physical impossibility in cases of claims of spontaneous hormone changes, and seems to just be describing gender dysphoria in others. It is both a redundant term and one that could cause people who have hormone fluctuations to not find the actual reason why. My intersex variation causes my hormones to spontaneously fluctuate. That is not caused by a niche queer microlabel. As for "enab" and "inabir", these terms are also entirely redundant and harmful as they imply one can change their status as a perisex/intersex person, which is not possible. We already have the word perisex, and intersex. There is no reason to tack on "at birth" on the end, as these things do not change about a person the same way someone may change their mullarian(female) or wolffian(male) sex later in life, making AFAB and AMAB useful terms in certain context, as sex can be changed. Intersex or non-intersex status can't be. Perisex simply means non-intersex. Someone who is non-intersex will always remain non-intersex. Miroymon coined "enab" and "inabir" after they were repeatedly told by intersex people to use the terms Perisex/endosex/dyadic correctly, which they refused to do. They did apologize, but instead of actually using the terms properly and stopping their incessant spreading of misinformation (like for example that Perisex is an opt-in label), they simply made up new terms in order to spread the same misinformation.

Miroymon has been told multiple times to stay out of intersex spaces, to stop calling us "alt-intersex" if we identify as altersex while being an intersex person, to stop saying you can identify out of being perisex, to stop insisting non-intersex people should call themselves hermaphrodites, and to stop saying intersex is a sex comparable to male or female. Intersex is not a sex, it is a state between sexes. I say this as a militant intersex liberationist who disagrees with our pathologization. Intersex can be a sex descriptor for some, it is for me. But intersex is not inherently a sex. Miroymon seems to deflect the criticism in implying altersex identity changes Perisex status by insisting we are "erasing alt-intersex people", which is an entirely different thing. I am intersex and I am altersex. Of course I believe intersex people can be altersex. I am saying that being altersex does not change my status as an intersex person. Just as being altersex does not change Miroymon's status as a perisex person. On social media they have been blocked by many large intersex advocacy accounts and refuse to change their behavior. On one occasion, an anonymous user told Miroymon that it is distasteful for Perisex individuals to self-ID as 'herms', in response, Miroymon coined the term 'hiram', claiming it is an altersex-exclusive identity and it is distasteful for non-altersex people to use. Miroymon's entire essay is full of similar misinformation.

Altersex is a valid and perfectly fine label, but it is not what Miroymon has been making it out to be. It is not a "somatic" sex, it is a trans-adjacent identity for people who have had atypical physical transitions and atypical physical transition goals/ideal bodies. What Miroymon describes as "somatic symptoms" matches the descriptions of gender dysphoria/body dysmorphia. Miroymon does not have any documented proof of altersex identity being linked to spontaneously fluctuating hormone levels. I have identified as altersex for the last four years and I have NEVER seen ANYONE push definitions like this for this term. This is an attempted definition-shift and rebranding of an existing term, using language that spreads misinformation and co-opts intersex experiences, even if Miroymon never actually says they support 'perisex to intersex transitions', it's implied. "Altersex is not a third category between or around intersex and perisex, and cannot fit exclusively into either or since it does not occur naturally.", I have a problem with this sentence because it undermines the fact that every single person is either intersex or perisex. Identifying as altersex does not mean you are no longer intersex or perisex. It means you are altersex in addition to intersex or perisex. That is why it is an additional label. Miroymon has been compared to a cisgender person who is offended at being referred to as cisgender, only in the context of being perisex. And I have to say its a very accurate comparison.

To say I am frustrated with this behavior and callous lack of regard for the intersex community is an understatement. - Intersexcowboy

Hey intersexcowboy, I spent a while reworking this page yesterday. I based the writing off the two main sources, including the original and the extended definition (see History section). I'm not intersex so I would like someone who is to view it over and ensure it's accurate, please. Any recommendations on improving the language and lay of the sentences would be greatly appreciated. If I've written something wrong or inaccurate I do not mean it as an offence, so I'm sorry if I have written anything inadvertently harmful. Again, I've been trying to base the majority of it entirely off just those two main sources. I'll unprotect this page so you can recommend edits yourself if you'd like. Jeb_CC, Bureaucrat | (xe/xem/xir) (talk) 23:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Sigh. This is what holding a grudge looks like. I have actually never said any of these things, and if someone could provide proof that I did specifically (in those words) claim any of what they said, I'll stop. I have never said that you can become anything other than perisex if you are a perisex altersex person. I have never said that you can transition into intersexness. I was never told to stop using alt-intersex (it's actually the correct term! It was coined as "altintersex" in multiple intersex spaces!)

You don't know my history because you don't know me haha! I have never interacted in intersex spaces except when I was talking ABOUT and WITH alt-intersex people in my circles and online. I also never said intersex is comparable to anything, show the mods proof of this! The term HIRAM is not even close to ""herm"". It was in the making for months now because my gender identity is close to xenic identities. In what world are you pulling that this has anything to do with intersex people. I have been blocked by intersex people because you said it yourself that an intersex server was actively laughing at my altersexness!

I legit just want altersex terminology and I have stepped on some toes, which is why I have apologized and moved on. You still are slandering my name for what? It's immature, please just stop. I coined enab and inabir because altersex people do not have terminology that doesn't reduce them to "binary" or "close to binary". we are not all binary.

I am not to be trusted? I have been altersex for 6+ years. I have been there when new terminology was being made. I am legitimately appalled. I am not intersexist for suggesting altersex people coin new terminology, especially when that terminology doesn't hinder on real intersex lives. I have never in my life said any of these things online or offline, and i would like to see proof that I did. This is slander, this is an immature grudge, and I just want to be altersex in peace. I don't want to be intersex, no one can transition to intersex, and spreading lies about me on a wiki is embarrassing to not only the mods but everyone involved. I just spent time with my family dawg, I am not focusing on this drama. Please just stop and realize that altersex means more than just what you want it to me for a select few people. I'm doing this fo everyone who experiences altersexness, not just those who desire it. It's ableism at its finest to imply that altersex experiences cannot coexist because of somatization - it's the main reason why "it's all in your head" is bad. You even said yourself that somatization was "fictional" and "nonsensical" referring to somayr as a somatic experience. it's ableist.. To the mods, I am so sorry you have to deal with this. There is no reason at all that this person has to stalk everything I do just to erase the history of another group.

(p.s altersex has nothing to do with being trans. you can be cis and altersex ) - Revision as of 09:27, 28 June 2024 by Miroymon

Gonna request that any personal beef should be done via alternative channels. Preferably this talk page should be nothing but to talk about the altersex label itself and how the page can be improved on. I am sure folks can do such without adding in "On social media they have been blocked by many large intersex advocacy accounts and refuse to change their behavior." or "You don't know my history because you don't know me haha!". Just tell me what's wrong with this page and how we can fix it (and of course provide resourcing to back it up). Jeb_CC, Bureaucrat | (xe/xem/xir) (talk) 23:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Altersex is labeled as a sex category here, which is true. "It is not a third sex or a third category between intersex and endosex/perisex" and "transitioning" between these three cannot happen because they're both innate sexes unlike altersex. Altersex should be described as "a sex category (or identity) that is altered or modified outside müllerian, intersex, and wolffian traits." This is because müllerian and wolffian as usually considered perisex/endosex while intersex is intersex. This includes intersex and endosex people at the same time. This definition also specifies that altersex is not present at birth without having to say it, it saves time and space with a cohesive description. the sentence, "Altersex includes those who are not transitioning, are not dysphoric, and who do not desire these traits," This would include alterhumans who have phantom limbs, plurals who experience sex characteristics only in headspace (tubuhive), and those who habe psychosomatic phenomenon that affect their sex identity (I have an altersex friend in an altersex server (who i believe is also intersex) who has DID and is altersex because of the DID.)

Altersex was used in fictional contexts, but is barely used for such now except in niche circles and spaces. Altersex is not inherently an additional label, because prioritizing sex and sex at birth is often bioessentialist. Altersex is, however, a label used to describe current or experienced sex characteristics outside of male, female, and intersex. This does not mean one transitions to intersex or to another sex, but means that the characteristics themselves do not occur naturally in humans.

related identities should include altersex exclusive identities such as Mosaic. The resources I would include are the Altersexed document I recently made detailing altersex identities, altersexism (maybe there should be a section about altersexism attached to the main page im not sure), and I included multiple altersex resources such as news coverage, medical information and much more.

-Miroymon

That document is unfortunately very difficult to go through. You make a bunch of claims but then link to no sources, except for when you lump them all at the very bottom of the page without any context as to what info you took from what source. And I don't have the time to go through each and every source just to find out where you got X and Y from. If you are going to recommend changes to this altersex article, I would prefer you quote the current revision of the page. Jeb_CC, Bureaucrat | (xe/xem/xir) (talk) 00:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Would you prefer I quote here or make an edit to the page (in order to compare versions)?

-Miroymon

Probably better to quote here and respond for now for ease of discussion. Any recommendations should include the original source you found said information from, and I mean the original - not the Google doc. Jeb_CC, Bureaucrat | (xe/xem/xir) (talk) 00:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

My rcommendations to the altersex page would include taking out the "catch-all adjective" part of this, "Altersex is a catch-all adjective to describe primary and secondary physical sex characteristics or a combination of that do not align with typical arrangements found in mullerian (female) or wolffian (male) bodies." It makes it seem like people really don't want altersex to be about sex identity. Instead it should be, "Altersex is a sex that describe modified primary and secondary sex characteristics that do not align with typical arrangements found in mullerian, wolffian bodies or intersex bodies." Getting rid of the male and female mention is important too because male and female aren't the same as müllerian and wolffian, as statef in this paragraph on the müllerian page, "Müllerian is not synonymous with AFAB, as some individuals who were AFAB are intersex, and do not have all of the traits listed. Müllerian can be described as "dyadic female." Mosaic should be added to the related identities list since it is considered under altersex related gender identities. I believe all of my other recommendations unfortunately are in the page editor (did it before you said otherwise oops..) -Miroymon

1. The "catch-all adjective" is exactly how the original coiner defined it. The creator explicitly stated that it is not just a sex but a category: "Altersex is a category-type term for all "non-standard" body plans", "Altersex does not refer to any specific body plan (or plans) the way terms like intersex or hermaphrodite do. Instead, it marks a person immediately as having a non-standard body plan, and then invites that person to specify what that means for themselves ". https://web.archive.org/web/20220130121558/https://web.archive.org/web/20200203031455/https://www.weasyl.com/journal/90896#cid210281

2. Have just removed the male/female part altogether. The original coining doesn't actually refer to any particular sex as being "usual" so I've reworded it to be more ambiguous as per the original.

3. Mosaic may be a little too unrelated. It does reference altersex but it's also primarily a gender identity with just altersex influences. I'm afraid if I add this then there's no reason not to add a bunch of other similar identities, and then the "See Also" list will become massive. The only reason I added altergender is because they share the same prefix.

Jeb_CC, Bureaucrat | (xe/xem/xir) (talk) 01:36, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

For the catch-all adj. part, it just seemed weird to add since altersex is already categorized as a sex identity on this wiki. I just thought it would just be stating something obvious. I guess you could say that salmacian would be the sex itself while altersex would be the sex identity - which would make sense as well. I also understand the reasoning for not including mosaic too, thank you ^^

-Miroymon